OK, I have a K24A4 Turbo charged with Precision 6266 sidewinder, forged internals 1200cc injectors etc etc the works.
I know that the developer of the Ktuner is also a tuner himself and I would like to ask if you can shed some light a very specific question regarding HP limitations.
The car is very very well tuned on all part throttle and full throttle just like a factory tuned turbo car. Runs flawless and no hiccups for 5 months now.
Here is the question:
Engine is Dyno and street tuned, it produces 340 WHP at 15 PSI (Dyno jet) using 93 pump gas fuel at 65% Duty cycle. Found out that MBT for this engine combo at full load after peak torque is 12 degrees of timing on the dyno under 11.5 AFR and is very smooth power with no knock. I then tuned it on E85 (E82 according to my flex fuel gauge) and I was only able to bump ignition timing 2 DEGREES!
Any less than 2 Degrees and it lost power, any more than 2 degrees and it also lost power. The 2 Degree bump was only able to produce an additional 20hp in mid range and about 15 hp on top end. I then raised the boost to 20 PSI and was only able to add 2 degrees as well. I'am now sitting at 10 degrees total timing under full load 20 PSI.
If this pattern continues, I will be at around 5 Degrees total timing by the time I hit 25 PSI. I was planning to go up to 30 PSI eventually but Im Afraid that even with E85 my timing would be so low that it wont make any more power. I will be in the 1-2 degree timing by the time I hit 30 PSI on E85 providing I have enough injectors later is my guesstimate.
This was all dyno tuned and back to back results were accurate, The Precision 6266 is not yet maxed out at just mere 20 PSI that I know for a fact, and I have enough octane to support more advance if needed... Precision 6266 is used by supra guys up to 35-40 PSI, Yes its a BIG ASS turbo!
1. Have I reached my engines VE that adding timing or raising the boost below the max PSI of the turbo will no longer produce power?
2. When is too little timing "TOO LITTLE" that it no longer makes sense to use that timing and just lower the boost?
3. Have you experienced tuning where you were limited by only 2 more degrees of timing using E85 when other K series engines like 6-8 degree additional timing?
4. What is the least amount of timing you would run until you decide that either the VE of the engine or turbo size is maxed out???
5. Is there any instance on other engines that you have tuned in the past that adding timing even on E85 does not produce any more power VS 91-93 pump fuel?
Ohhh and BTW the engine has rock solid 160 psi Compression on all 4 and its as healthy as olympic runner!
Thanks and love the K tuner system by the way! Keep up the good work
K TUNER Horse power limit
Re: K TUNER Horse power limit
Glad you're enjoying it and making good power!
I do not see why you'd need to pull a full degree per psi and the math doesn't support this given your final timing vs where you should be in the last NA column. I am not able to answer questions related to tuning theory here, but you will need to recalculate or tune and see where you actually end up.
I do not see why you'd need to pull a full degree per psi and the math doesn't support this given your final timing vs where you should be in the last NA column. I am not able to answer questions related to tuning theory here, but you will need to recalculate or tune and see where you actually end up.
Re: K TUNER Horse power limit
My ignition timing on the last column under all motor or just before boost is around 26-27 degrees, I actually dyno tuned the car all motor first before putting on the turbo so I know far a fact that this is the max ignition it likes all motor.
My tuning strategy on the dyno was this:
1. start at 5-6 PSI of boost
2. Dial in 11.5 AFR under boost
3. Start at very conservative timing
4. Start adding 1 degree of timing at a time and compare dyno graph
5. After determining MBT I then play with air/fuel mix to see if there is any gain by going lean/rich by half point increments
6. I then move on by going 2-3 psi more and repeat the entire process.
The MBT were it made most power at 15 PSI was at 12 Degrees total timing after max torque under 93 octane.
Can you atleast answer me this.....
1. I know you have tuned many engines, Have you ever encountered a car that did not GAIN any power by bumping the ignition timing using E85 or other race fuel using the same boost level even by playing with AFR?????
2. Have you ever tuned a car that you were only able to add 1 or 2 degree of total timing from the original 91-93 octane tune and it did not make any more power beyond 1-2 degree more of timing????
3. What was the most timing you were able to add VS the 91 Octane ignition timing values on full load using E85??? 6,8,9 -10 Degrees? Give me a number. It could be any engine I dont care I just want to know this.
My tuning strategy on the dyno was this:
1. start at 5-6 PSI of boost
2. Dial in 11.5 AFR under boost
3. Start at very conservative timing
4. Start adding 1 degree of timing at a time and compare dyno graph
5. After determining MBT I then play with air/fuel mix to see if there is any gain by going lean/rich by half point increments
6. I then move on by going 2-3 psi more and repeat the entire process.
The MBT were it made most power at 15 PSI was at 12 Degrees total timing after max torque under 93 octane.
Can you atleast answer me this.....
1. I know you have tuned many engines, Have you ever encountered a car that did not GAIN any power by bumping the ignition timing using E85 or other race fuel using the same boost level even by playing with AFR?????
2. Have you ever tuned a car that you were only able to add 1 or 2 degree of total timing from the original 91-93 octane tune and it did not make any more power beyond 1-2 degree more of timing????
3. What was the most timing you were able to add VS the 91 Octane ignition timing values on full load using E85??? 6,8,9 -10 Degrees? Give me a number. It could be any engine I dont care I just want to know this.
Re: K TUNER Horse power limit
No Reply???
Last 3 questions is pretty easy to answer man, just want you to share your personal experience on this matter. Thanks
Last 3 questions is pretty easy to answer man, just want you to share your personal experience on this matter. Thanks
Re: K TUNER Horse power limit
I can answer software related questions, not tuning related questions. 
Re: K TUNER Horse power limit
Not trying to be rude but that's kind of a crappy response man...
If a customer asks you: " Is (14.7:1 on regular 91-93 Pump gas) AFR the correct stoich reading I should be shooting for under idle and part throttle on a stock K20 with just an air filter upgrade? " Are you going to answer - SORRY I CANNOT ANSWER TUNING QUESTIONS!!! Come on man this my point!
I personally believe that sharing "BASIC" or "GENERAL E85" experience using your product is not asking way off the line. Tuning is not like a black magic voodoo like it did 10-15 years ago and is becoming a more general knowledge in the import and domestic world now. I'am not here to lecture you on how to run your business but if you want your product and customer service to be ahead of the game VS Hondata, Haltech, Motec, AEM, then a little general experience and knowledge on a simple E85 question won't hurt your business man. For example: Hondata on their software's help page (Which K tuner does not have in the software " Eyes rolling") details basic info about E85 written in black and white to help the consumer, Professional and Novice a like that are new to flex fuel to make the tuning experience using their product an enjoyable one.
This helps a lot of your customers not just me but the entire Honda community as well.
This is the problem with this industry, tuners feel like they have a magic voodoo that other people don't posses. You are NOT helping the community and your customers if you leave them Uneducated in simple stuffs like this. You will build more consumer confidence in buying your product and trying to tune their own cars if you arm them with basic general knowledge as a starting point. If I have a dyno and tune many E85 cars I'm sure I would find out the answer to my own question but I don't have that.
I'm NOT asking you to tune my car because I obviously know how to do that already or else I would have already hurt my motor on the dyno after over 50 passes and thousands of miles on the car already. I just want a little feedback from your past experience because E85 although not brand new is still a fairly new type of fuel for most people specially if we dont have a dyno shop that tunes E85 on a regular.
Hondata, Haltech, AEM and other companies have answered basic tuning questions when using their product. I'am asking the same courtesy from Ktuner to do the same. I repeat, I'AM NOT ASKING YOU TO TUNE MY CAR! Just answer the BASIC questions.
If its a simple yes or no question or a simple - Yes I have experienced seeing NO gain on other cars with E85 Etc etc then just answer the damn question, sheeeeshhh... You afraid its gonna hurt your tuning business if people find out about my E85 question because other tuners or self home tuners are instantly going to become professionals and open a tuning shop to compete with you just by answering these simple questions? Come on man!
E85 has been out for a while and I'am sure its no big secret, I just want your honest true to life real world experience since I bought the Ktuner from you man.
I would appreciate and the entire world of kTUNERS if you gave us some input about this matter to help future generation of self tuners to buy your product.
If a customer asks you: " Is (14.7:1 on regular 91-93 Pump gas) AFR the correct stoich reading I should be shooting for under idle and part throttle on a stock K20 with just an air filter upgrade? " Are you going to answer - SORRY I CANNOT ANSWER TUNING QUESTIONS!!! Come on man this my point!
I personally believe that sharing "BASIC" or "GENERAL E85" experience using your product is not asking way off the line. Tuning is not like a black magic voodoo like it did 10-15 years ago and is becoming a more general knowledge in the import and domestic world now. I'am not here to lecture you on how to run your business but if you want your product and customer service to be ahead of the game VS Hondata, Haltech, Motec, AEM, then a little general experience and knowledge on a simple E85 question won't hurt your business man. For example: Hondata on their software's help page (Which K tuner does not have in the software " Eyes rolling") details basic info about E85 written in black and white to help the consumer, Professional and Novice a like that are new to flex fuel to make the tuning experience using their product an enjoyable one.
This helps a lot of your customers not just me but the entire Honda community as well.
This is the problem with this industry, tuners feel like they have a magic voodoo that other people don't posses. You are NOT helping the community and your customers if you leave them Uneducated in simple stuffs like this. You will build more consumer confidence in buying your product and trying to tune their own cars if you arm them with basic general knowledge as a starting point. If I have a dyno and tune many E85 cars I'm sure I would find out the answer to my own question but I don't have that.
I'm NOT asking you to tune my car because I obviously know how to do that already or else I would have already hurt my motor on the dyno after over 50 passes and thousands of miles on the car already. I just want a little feedback from your past experience because E85 although not brand new is still a fairly new type of fuel for most people specially if we dont have a dyno shop that tunes E85 on a regular.
Hondata, Haltech, AEM and other companies have answered basic tuning questions when using their product. I'am asking the same courtesy from Ktuner to do the same. I repeat, I'AM NOT ASKING YOU TO TUNE MY CAR! Just answer the BASIC questions.
If its a simple yes or no question or a simple - Yes I have experienced seeing NO gain on other cars with E85 Etc etc then just answer the damn question, sheeeeshhh... You afraid its gonna hurt your tuning business if people find out about my E85 question because other tuners or self home tuners are instantly going to become professionals and open a tuning shop to compete with you just by answering these simple questions? Come on man!
E85 has been out for a while and I'am sure its no big secret, I just want your honest true to life real world experience since I bought the Ktuner from you man.
I would appreciate and the entire world of kTUNERS if you gave us some input about this matter to help future generation of self tuners to buy your product.
Last edited by RABOOST on Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:51 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Re: K TUNER Horse power limit
Again, for the sake of customer service from a guy that bought your product please answer the BASIC simple real world experience is all I ask man.
The first 2 questions are answerable by a simple YES or NO
1. I know you have tuned many engines, Have you ever encountered a car that did not GAIN any power by bumping the ignition timing using E85 or other race fuel using the same boost level even by playing with AFR?????
2. Have you ever tuned a car that you were only able to add 1 or 2 degree of total timing from the original 91-93 octane tune and it did not make any more power beyond 1-2 degree more of timing????
3. What was the most timing you were able to add VS the 91 Octane ignition timing values on full load using E85??? 6,8,9 -10 Degrees? Give me a number. It could be any engine I dont care I just want to know this.
Thank you if you decide to reply
The first 2 questions are answerable by a simple YES or NO
1. I know you have tuned many engines, Have you ever encountered a car that did not GAIN any power by bumping the ignition timing using E85 or other race fuel using the same boost level even by playing with AFR?????
2. Have you ever tuned a car that you were only able to add 1 or 2 degree of total timing from the original 91-93 octane tune and it did not make any more power beyond 1-2 degree more of timing????
3. What was the most timing you were able to add VS the 91 Octane ignition timing values on full load using E85??? 6,8,9 -10 Degrees? Give me a number. It could be any engine I dont care I just want to know this.
Thank you if you decide to reply
Re: K TUNER Horse power limit
I am one developer handling all of this. Working on new updates, new vehicle coverage, new hardware, firmware, etc. I am limited on time, but I am always here to answer software support questions, feature requests, bug reports. That's what this forum is for. That's what KTuner customer support covers.
I am not special and there is no magic tuning voodoo. Anyone can learn this stuff. The info you seek is available out there on forums, in books, tuning classes, etc. I simply can't offer that here.
I am not special and there is no magic tuning voodoo. Anyone can learn this stuff. The info you seek is available out there on forums, in books, tuning classes, etc. I simply can't offer that here.
Re: K TUNER Horse power limit
There is only 2 possible answer here, Please answer with all honesty once and for all and I will stop asking after this...
1. You DO NOT know the answer to the last 3 questions I just posted.
2. You DO KNOW the answer to all 3 questions, but simply refuse to answer them because you are:
Too Lazy to answer the 3 questions
Afraid people will have more knowledge in tuning and affect your tuning services
Don't really want to share information to anybody or your customers regarding this matter
Which one of the 2 possible answer is your answer????
Answer #1 or #2?
1. You DO NOT know the answer to the last 3 questions I just posted.
2. You DO KNOW the answer to all 3 questions, but simply refuse to answer them because you are:
Too Lazy to answer the 3 questions
Afraid people will have more knowledge in tuning and affect your tuning services
Don't really want to share information to anybody or your customers regarding this matter
Which one of the 2 possible answer is your answer????
Answer #1 or #2?
Re: K TUNER Horse power limit
Possible answers for my 3 questions above are:
1. YES
2. YES
3. 8 DEGREES
There! Is that so hard to answer?
Took me less than 10 seconds to type. All this back and forth and you could have easily satisfied my questions and not go thru all this BS man. I understand you are busy but these questions require very little time to answer! I will be waiting for your reply on my last post of the 2 Possible answers why you refuse to answer them.
Its called going above and beyond the call of duty and what will make you stand out from the competition because of customer service. If the answer required a long explanation then OK I understand but this requires 10 seconds of your precious time!
1. YES
2. YES
3. 8 DEGREES
There! Is that so hard to answer?
Took me less than 10 seconds to type. All this back and forth and you could have easily satisfied my questions and not go thru all this BS man. I understand you are busy but these questions require very little time to answer! I will be waiting for your reply on my last post of the 2 Possible answers why you refuse to answer them.
Its called going above and beyond the call of duty and what will make you stand out from the competition because of customer service. If the answer required a long explanation then OK I understand but this requires 10 seconds of your precious time!